Ep17 Kevin Maney - Category Design and Creating Intended Consequences

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Speaker 1
Hello. Hello, everyone. Suzanne Taylor King here for Unlock Your Way with STK. And I'm super excited to be here today with Kevin Maney. Hello, Kevin. Welcome.

00:00:15:03 - 00:00:17:21
Speaker 2
Hi, Suzanne. Nice to be on your show.

00:00:17:23 - 00:00:45:16
Speaker 1
Well, thank you so much for being here. And this is one of the rare occasions where I do a show with someone I've never actually had a conversation with before. It's only happened one other time. So I but I feel so close to you and what you do and the things you talk about that it was a no brainer for me when you said, Yeah, so thank you so much for being here, but.

00:00:45:23 - 00:00:47:10
Speaker 2
I'm looking forward to it.

00:00:47:12 - 00:01:12:11
Speaker 1
Well, first of all, you are one of the original gang of category thinkers, and this was really intriguing to me. I heard about you through our friend Pablo Gonzalez. That's how I got introduced to this whole community and this new book that has just come out. Your most recent book is Intended Consequences.

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Speaker 2
That's the most recent one that's come out. Yeah.

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Speaker 1
Wonderful. Tell us a little bit about what inspired that book. And then we can talk about the ones before that.

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Speaker 2
Sure. Well, so I've had this collaborative writing relationship for what it's been like eight years now with Amazon Asia, who's the CEO of General Catalyst. And you know, it's been one of the most successful voices of the past decade. And and we have a, you know, just a terrific working relationship. And so we've first wrote a book that was called Long Scales came out in 2008, and I think I followed that up with one call on health care, which took the scale, was mostly about basically how Asia is going to impact all sorts of different industries.

00:02:04:04 - 00:02:31:22
Speaker 2
We were a little ahead of the ball game and that we and of health care was a deeper dive into the health care industry itself. And then the third book we published together was this book called Empathic Consequences. And one of the I mean, basically the core idea was that increasingly, especially now, of course, now it's become, you know, particularly important with chatbots and the general, the AI and all this stuff that's happening.

00:02:31:24 - 00:03:01:23
Speaker 2
There's a lot of conversation about responsible innovation and how do you how do you create not only products but actually build companies that are responsible about the way that they you know, they bring innovation to the world and what what have and I were talking about is that everybody's talking about that you need to do that. But nobody's actually written a playbook for like if you're a founder or you're a CEO or whatever and and you want to build your company that way.

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Speaker 2
How do you think about that and what are the steps you could take and how do you build that into the everyday processes of the way your company works? So intended consequences is is that playbook like how do you as a founder, how do you do that?

00:03:16:01 - 00:03:49:27
Speaker 1
I, I resonate with this so much because I just asked a question the other day on social media about buying a a course or a coaching program that was generated 100% with I from concept to outline to scripts to the videos, to all the handouts that the actual person selling this course didn't have anything to do with its creation, so none of the person's intellectual property was used.

00:03:50:03 - 00:04:27:13
Speaker 1
It was all generated with A.I.. And my question was, is that real or is that something that you should be selling as a person? Is that morally okay to, you know, sell that as your own thing? And it just didn't feel right to me. And I thought, this is this is really what you're talking about here. Is that intentional creation of something, but having it come from the person you know, I don't know it was is that really responsible to be putting that out into the marketplace?

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Speaker 2
Well, there's two there's I think there's two different things that get raised here. And so one is, yes, we're having an ongoing conversation right now about intellectual property. I mean, it's a very it's a you know, it's a very tangled topic right now because, for instance, in this person's case, I don't know anything about what you, you know, access to or whatever.

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Speaker 2
But just from what you've told me, if they're building that where they are, that means I learn from a lot of other things that other people created that were their property. So are you actually creating something that's new and is this yours? Are you or are you stealing from a bunch of other people who are creating something? I don't know.

00:05:05:11 - 00:05:25:21
Speaker 2
I don't think we know the I don't think I think the courts are going to be able to untangle that answer. But there's another there's a whole other level when you go back to just what's happened with, for instance, with open A.I. and how fast they've gone and they've been releasing AI into the world without really knowing what it's going to do.

00:05:25:24 - 00:05:58:02
Speaker 2
And we're starting to create things that are so powerful and can and can have such an enormous effect on millions or billions of people's lives that there's an irresponsibility to putting those things out into the wild before you, before you have some knowledge of what they can and can't do, some guardrails to make sure that they don't, you know, do bad things or, you know, create enormous biases or God knows what, you know, influences, elections, everything.

00:05:58:02 - 00:06:22:17
Speaker 2
So we don't want these things to do right. And so they're this is the other conversation that's going on is what's the responsible way to put these powerful technologies out into the world? Well, not slowing down the development of them because they do have a potential of solving really important problems for us. They also have the potential of doing enormous hard and I have talked about that.

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Speaker 2
It's in some ways it's not unlike when when nuclear fission was severed. Right. And here's here's this super powerful technology that, yes, it can be built into nuclear reactors. That power the world in a very clean way. And yet it could also blow up the world. And after that was created and there were some crazy ideas, you know, in the in the 1950s about like building like jet planes that ran out of nuclear fuel.

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Speaker 2
I mean, you know, and which if it crashed, that would have a problem. But we had a conversation around that and created something called the Nuclear Energy Commission. And a nuclear regulatory commission. I'm sorry to to try to, you know, put guardrails around that. And it's the same kind of thing we need to do now around what's going on with these technology.

00:07:19:22 - 00:07:58:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. Agreed. Well, one of the people in my Facebook group, my community, actually said, well, how is if using AI to create something is really from, you know, hundreds of other people's intellectual property because it's collecting data? How is that different than researching a topic, for example, high performance habits? And I research it from ten different perspectives, take ten different courses, read 60 different books on it, and then I create my own thing.

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Speaker 1
I've done the same thing. I.

00:08:00:15 - 00:08:04:09
Speaker 2
Know, I know. That's the interesting question, right in that session.

00:08:04:11 - 00:08:17:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, It's such a fascinating, like using machine to do that or using me to do that. It's it's still really the same thing. And we had a really interesting discussion about that, the intention behind that.

00:08:17:04 - 00:08:39:05
Speaker 2
No, no. This is this is this is just me speaking. But, you know, on a personal level, it you know, if you look back at our groundbreaking book Play Bigger, which is what led the category thinkers and category design and all the things that you're excited about, you know, we understood that we were standing on the shoulders of giants.

00:08:39:08 - 00:09:08:14
Speaker 2
And and so, you know, my belief is that you credit where credit is due. And so we you know, we yes, we built on, you know, recent trials where we built on pricing the chasm and a lot of other seminal, you know, seminal work. And we took all of those things and then built on top of it. But wherever possible, we credited those people with what, you know, how they they fit into this.

00:09:08:14 - 00:09:20:27
Speaker 2
And that's what I believe. And that's the thing that you're not going to get from the A.I., It's just going to regurgitate everything as if it just came out of the out of thin air and you're never going to know where it came from. That's the problem.

00:09:21:00 - 00:09:49:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk a little bit about play bigger, because that's how I originally your name got on my radar was that book again, another collaborative book. And what intrigues me most? Well, the book intrigues me. I loved it. But also this history you have of great collaborations. So I'd love to dig into that a little bit.

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Speaker 1
After you tell us about Play Bigger and how it's really influenced category design at a whole new level, a whole new generation of thinkers. I built.

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Speaker 2
Yeah, well, you know, so just for your background, for your, your audience. So I was a, you know, a journalist and an author for and I still am in some ways and have been for 35 something years and and before play bigger. I'd written a number of books and I had a couple of my coauthors. I wrote the book with three other guys, Chris Lochhead, al Ramadan, Dave Peterson Al I do quite well for maybe 20 years or so.

00:10:35:04 - 00:11:11:03
Speaker 2
By the time we even got together, Chris I met Dave was new to me and but we got we all got we had dinner one night in San Francisco, 2014 ish and got talking about this idea that in especially in digital markets that that most categories tend to be a winner take all situation and and just if you kind of like use some backward logic if that's the case, then why if you're running a company, why wouldn't you want to do everything you could to increase the odds that you're the one that wins the market's header?

00:11:11:03 - 00:11:39:24
Speaker 2
Because that's where all the economics come from. And it turns out it's way better to to be the, you know, the the winner of a decent sized category than it is to be like the number five player in a big category. So, you know, that we then we just kind of started saying like, well, what if we could reverse engineer this and and create a playbook for how do you think that way?

00:11:39:24 - 00:12:07:00
Speaker 2
How do you build a company that way around the idea that it's all about, first of all, seeing out into the marketplace and understanding a category that doesn't exist yet, that needs to exist? And then once you do that, how do you how do you define it and put rules around it so that the the public out there believes that you're the one that knows this category best, but also puts you sort of in the driver's seat of the category in general.

00:12:07:00 - 00:12:28:09
Speaker 2
Anybody else who comes in, if you set the expectations of what this category is going to look like and take like Uber, for example, for instance, you know, Uber created this app with the little cars that drive around everything, right? They set the expectations for what ridesharing should look like. And every ridesharing company in the world that's ever come up after that has created some version of that expectation.

00:12:28:12 - 00:12:48:28
Speaker 2
So they set the rules. So how do you how do you see that that new space? How do you set the rules and define that space? And then and then over time, do what you need to do to ultimately win that space. And so we you know, we started working this through and that this turned into the book play bigger.

00:12:48:28 - 00:13:09:04
Speaker 2
We actually created the word category design. We it was a book. We're in Chris's kitchen and have a conversation one time and we're talking about how this was really we were talking about categories all along, but we started talking about the word design and saying this is category of category design and phrase came up and it stuck.

00:13:09:07 - 00:13:11:03
Speaker 1
And did you know it right away when?

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Speaker 2
Yeah, we all basically I think I said it, it just basically pounded the counter and said, that's right.

00:13:18:05 - 00:13:21:14
Speaker 1
Love those moments.

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Speaker 2
And then the book came out. And look, I mean, I you know, I thought that I was an author and moving on to the next book and the book came out and just blew up and resulted in CEOs all over the world calling and saying, please help us do what you wrote about. And so that's now turned into a full on, you know, startup advisory CEO advisory business to work on category design.

00:13:49:15 - 00:14:16:24
Speaker 1
Amazing. I think I want to know a little bit about this writing style of yours that is so action oriented. You know, it's not fluff and theory and and just conceptual. It's actual how to how to do it, how to think about it, how to implement it. And I think that really stands out in in today's marketplace of books.

00:14:16:24 - 00:14:43:20
Speaker 1
I'm an avid reader, and when a book does that for me, it it always ends up on the rotation list of books I recommend to people because it's actionable and so much of what we learn today in social media, you know, we're constantly inputs inputs from news and TV and social media and the scroll, but we don't get the how to we don't get the implementation piece.

00:14:43:25 - 00:14:51:21
Speaker 1
So how did you how did you come up with that style or like, why was that so important to you?

00:14:51:24 - 00:15:19:27
Speaker 2
Well, certainly not every book I've written has been that way, and it's somewhat situational of like, is that what we're doing? Is that what it's called for here? And, you know, two books in particular play bigger and attended consequences. You know, from the beginning, the goal was to to write a playbook, to write something that people could take and use and actually, you know, without ever calling us implement in their companies.

00:15:20:00 - 00:15:35:20
Speaker 2
And I think that's one of the reasons the book play bigger has been so successful. We hear all the time from say, you know, some CEO somewhere who, you know, read the book or try to, you know, carry that out by themselves. And they just want to tell us, like, here's the result of this whole thing that we did.

00:15:35:20 - 00:16:09:27
Speaker 2
Follow your script and you know, that's super satisfying. And actually now, like I'm halfway through what will be our fourth, the fourth book written with with from General Catalyst. And this one is about the, you know, the, you know, basically our are not our nine principles for impact investing. So creating a couple creating companies, changing the mindset mindset of of capitalism from profits only to profits plus impact.

00:16:09:29 - 00:16:21:03
Speaker 2
And how do you how do you create a set of principles to follow to do that? And we're halfway there. So it's another sort of that kind of actionable instruction in the book when it's,

00:16:21:06 - 00:16:33:19
Speaker 1
I'll look forward to that because I'm a big conscious capitalism fan and a big Corp fan and, you know, putting people over profits. So that'll be a great read for me.

00:16:33:20 - 00:17:04:29
Speaker 2
Well, and I just want to make one slight adjustment to that is that in the way that we're arguing this out, it's not putting people over profits, it's actually people and profits. And in this next era and going back to the early part of the because we're creating these super powerful technologies that can do a lot of harm if they get out out of bounds, that the companies that are going to and by all other generations has come up, that's that they want to work for companies that do good while they're doing well.

00:17:05:02 - 00:17:27:15
Speaker 2
And so the companies that follow this kind of playbook are going to be the ones that have enduring success over long periods of time. And and so it's actually about by doing this, it's not about being philanthropic and say we're going to give up some profits because we're going to do good stuff. It's that actually we're going to do better.

00:17:27:18 - 00:17:30:24
Speaker 2
We're going to have more success if we actually operate this way.

00:17:30:27 - 00:17:50:28
Speaker 1
Now, it's a good distinction because, you know, I think being innovative as far as attracting younger people, younger talent, new talent, you have to you have to, again, be different. You have to be more than just a place to work.

00:17:51:00 - 00:17:52:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely.

00:17:52:09 - 00:18:16:12
Speaker 1
I love it. I love it. So talk a little bit about this collaboration history you have. I I'm a big fan of collaboration, but your seem to be not only long standing, you know, more than one endeavor, but also really impactful and really aligned.

00:18:16:15 - 00:18:40:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's a good question. So the first the first one was actually a book called The Two Second Advantage, which came out in 2011, which was I wish it came out about, you know, ten years later because it was about the intersection between brain science and computer science and what they were learning from each other. It was a little ahead of the curve on the, I think.

00:18:40:11 - 00:18:51:04
Speaker 2
But I coauthored that with the background of Debo, who at the time was the CEO of Cisco. He's now the owner of the Sacramento Kings basketball team.

00:18:51:07 - 00:19:23:08
Speaker 2
But I had not actually done that before. So I had written a number of books on my own, and this opportunity came up. We started talking. We had a very simpatico idea about, like what to do, and and I really liked it. It was a good economic model for me as an author. It worked really well. But but also just having two brains in the room, you know, was turned out to be, you know, it added to the concept content itself.

00:19:23:11 - 00:19:44:23
Speaker 2
But it also was a more interesting way to write because, you know, being of author writers can be a very lonely, isolating business. And then and then I ended up doing Play Bigger with three other guys, which actually we got turned down by some publishers where we were trying to sell the book because they thought four people could never write a book together.

00:19:44:25 - 00:20:13:29
Speaker 2
And and the reason that it came off was the turning point was when we we decided we're going to approach this as a band like you two would approach an album. It's not four guys writing a book. It's one band writing a book. And we knew that we needed one sound and one, you know, attitude. And and and when we hit on that, it made it all work.

00:20:14:02 - 00:20:38:23
Speaker 2
And then, you know, and then these last three and now into a fourth book with him, you know, again, it's the same kind of thing. It's just a great process with how it is even more interesting because there's all of general catalyst behind it. So I'm not just collaborating with him, but I can also drive a lot of those resources and, you know, look at the education I get from it.

00:20:38:25 - 00:20:47:19
Speaker 2
I mean, I've gotten five MBAs out of working with these, like, unbelievable people. Yeah, one on one. So, you know, it's been wonderful for me.

00:20:47:21 - 00:20:57:00
Speaker 1
Yeah. Well and and resulted in you having a consulting business that you really didn't set out to have.

00:20:57:04 - 00:21:02:07
Speaker 2
Right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. I got pulled into the consulting business.

00:21:02:10 - 00:21:06:17
Speaker 1
Tell us about the first time that happened. What was what was your thought? Well, I think.

00:21:06:17 - 00:21:50:19
Speaker 2
What happened was so Dave, Chris, when we when we were doing the book, Dave Personnel, they already were head of the startup advisory business. And, and, you know, I thought, you know, the book would be done and, you know, might help. Again, none of us thought the book was going to like, blow up like it did, right? So if it's going to help their advisory business and it will help me sell my next book and we got and when, you know, essentially the phones and emails started ringing off the hook for them, they approached me and another guy who's kind of been in their circle for 25 years named Mike Danforth and said, We can't

00:21:50:19 - 00:22:24:18
Speaker 2
do all of this. Why don't the spot, the two of you guys set up another business and just take some of these incoming calls? So we were like, okay. And, and yeah, you know, and, and we learned some from the way they were already handling clients. And then we invented some stuff ourselves and, and yeah, you know, I'm sure like everybody's experience out there, you know, the first couple of times we worked on this, we did a couple for free just to try to figure out how to do this.

00:22:24:20 - 00:22:47:06
Speaker 2
And, you know, it's pretty rough at first, like the like till you get your footing. And and then we you know, we kind of figured it out and and and have had great success with it and a lot of really happy clients who we've truly helped, you know, figure out what the what they're all about, why they need to exist in the world and and how to build a market category.

00:22:47:08 - 00:23:02:29
Speaker 1
I love it. I love that it was not intentional to have the book turn into a consulting practice. Well done on that. Now, how about this graphic novel that's in your history?

00:23:03:01 - 00:23:36:28
Speaker 2
Well, this was this was just sort of a little side thing, which was I've had a good friend for a very, very long time named Mark Holmes. When I first met Mark, he worked for National Geographic and he was a graphic artist and and actually ended up running the Web operations for it for National Geographic and very talented artist and and so I was I had a good relationship with Cisco in the communications team at Cisco had done some writing for them, some work for them.

00:23:36:28 - 00:24:05:06
Speaker 2
And that was after I was kind of out of journalism, daily journalism kind of stuff. And I was talking to them one time about they were they were struggling to talk about some of the technology, things I wanted to talk about in a way that was very, you know, very easy to understand and and would capture people in a way that was different and not just like a blog post or something like that.

00:24:05:09 - 00:24:34:26
Speaker 2
And so I approached Mark about this idea of what if we took one of their topics and instead of writing like a thousand word article about it, instead turn it into essentially a comic book. And and Cisco loved the idea. We ended up doing four or five of these for them about different topics. And it was you know, it was basically dramatizing something about like, you know, cyber security or something like that.

00:24:34:28 - 00:24:39:18
Speaker 2
But actually telling it in this form of like a superhero story.

00:24:39:20 - 00:25:04:09
Speaker 1
That I'm going to have my husband look them up because my husband is a Cisco certified, you know, IEEE guy that works for Dell, so well versed in those topics. And, you know, our brains are I'm creative and he's linear. So might be an interesting conversation for us to overstate that That's great.

00:25:04:12 - 00:25:40:07
Speaker 2
All right. If I if I can go even farther afield on that. Yeah, that I have after after nine nonfiction books published, I'm about to publish a fiction book, a novel. and but there's but there's a bit of a business story behind it, which is that from the late 1980s to the early 1990s when the Soviet Union was falling apart and that whole Eastern Bloc falling apart, I was covering that for USA Today.

00:25:40:07 - 00:26:10:25
Speaker 2
I was making a lot of trips over there. I was a reporter at USA Today and I was covering the business side of the economic side of it. And it was, you know, it was this crazy like once in a history kind of moment when this, you know, superpower essentially was falling apart and trying to adopt an entirely new system and crazy things were happening and it was chaos and, you know, weird stuff like KGB agents starting businesses and like kidnaping people from other businesses and stuff.

00:26:10:27 - 00:26:51:04
Speaker 2
And and I was a witness to all of this. And I had all this information and details. And in 1991, before I'd written any nonfiction book, I decided to use that information in that setting and wrote it to write a novel. So I wrote a novel about this. It kind of a funny, quirky thriller about this American young American consultant that goes over trying to do it because they think he can strike it rich in this unfolding economy of Russia, goes over and gets in all kinds of in the middle of all kinds of trouble between the KGB agents who run businesses and, you know, falls in love with a Russian woman, you know, and

00:26:51:04 - 00:27:14:25
Speaker 2
all these things that happened, this whole, you know, kind of thriller story. And so I wrote this thing and I didn't I never read the book. I didn't know what I was doing. I sent it to a couple of editors and never heard back from anybody and figured out, well, you know, this is the fun exercise. I'll just stick it in a Tupperware container and, you know, put it in a closet.

00:27:14:28 - 00:27:35:06
Speaker 2
And then a couple of years ago, my oldest kid, my daughter, who was born around the time that I wrote the book, asked me if she could read it. And so I found it at a storage bin and and pulled it out. And I told her, like, I think I want to read it first because of my talk, and I'd be embarrassed.

00:27:35:08 - 00:28:01:23
Speaker 2
And I'm reading it almost like for the first time, I could barely remember anything in the book from the book. And, and I start reading it and I'm like, This is really good. And so I sent it to her, who is also she's also a journalist and writer and and very, very well read. So she said she comes, gets back to me and says like, this is terrific, but I have like two pages of notes that'll make it better.

00:28:01:25 - 00:28:29:15
Speaker 2
And and so I read the book and some of her input centered around some other, you know, discerning friends who all came back and said, this is really great. So I ended up I ended up putting it all together and putting it out there. And and it's so probably it's due to come out later in February and it's called Read Bottom Line.

00:28:29:18 - 00:28:56:17
Speaker 2
I'm super excited about it because it actually does combine some of the some of the things that are really important to me. I mean, it is a business, the economic sort of background story about, you know, people who are going through some extraordinary times at that moment in time. But it also allows me to really get my, you know, my creative side out and and invent situations and and people and characters.

00:28:56:17 - 00:29:08:07
Speaker 2
And so it's kind of like this marriage of that graphic novel stuff we were talking about and, you know, the business side of things and it kind of all came together in this and I'm very excited about it.

00:29:08:14 - 00:29:14:12
Speaker 1
How fun and how cool was it that your daughter had input for it?

00:29:14:14 - 00:29:28:27
Speaker 2
I really appreciate it. I think it was great. In fact, I you know, I put an author's note at the beginning of the book that explained a little of what I just told you, but also gave her credit for for, you know, sort of putting it over the transom.

00:29:29:00 - 00:29:54:16
Speaker 1
I love it. I love that she was brave enough to have some notes for you on the book. You know, congrats to her. All right. Last question. So I noticed something in your bio that you're in a band and that it's called Total Blam Blam. And immediately I was like David Bowie ish band here, Tell me more.

00:29:54:16 - 00:30:19:10
Speaker 2
Yeah, but here's the thing that you see, the poster that I hear by now, if I look. But yeah, no, I've done it for about ten years. I mean, I've been a musician and songwriter and, and in bands and stuff or, you know, most Night Life and, and for the past ten years or so with these guys in New York.

00:30:19:13 - 00:30:41:17
Speaker 2
Yeah, we're big David Bowie fans. So there's a song called Suffragette City that has a line. She's a total glam glam of her. This is what we named the band after. And yeah, we play regularly around New York. I write a lot of our music. We also play some, but we had Springsteen and Tom Petty and, you know, things like that too.

00:30:41:17 - 00:30:44:08
Speaker 1
But ever get to Philadelphia?

00:30:44:11 - 00:30:49:11
Speaker 2
No, we've never played in Philadelphia. And if you know someplace we should play in Philadelphia. Yeah.

00:30:49:14 - 00:31:01:24
Speaker 1
I do. I do know of a couple. I worked for Electric Factory concerts for a long time. And so, yeah, and I'm thinking maybe a special appearance and an event might be fun.

00:31:02:00 - 00:31:04:01
Speaker 2
What? We would love to do that.

00:31:04:08 - 00:31:31:07
Speaker 1
I love it. Well, I'm just absolutely thrilled. I was brave enough to reach out to a stranger and ask them to be on my podcast. And so thankful that you said yes. And I can't wait to read a novel from you. Really, really exciting. I'll look forward to sharing that with my audience as well. Thanks. How can people get in touch with you?

00:31:31:09 - 00:31:57:13
Speaker 2
Well, you know, our firm, the category design firm, is actually called Category Design Advisors. And so there's a website category design advisors dot com. And I also have a website of mine called just Kevin Main AECOM. And and that site has things like not only the the books and articles but also the music stuff and all that. So, you know, you can find me either way.

00:31:57:16 - 00:32:05:21
Speaker 1
All right. Awesome. Well, thank you again so much for being here today and appreciate it and appreciate the work that you do.

00:32:05:23 - 00:32:12:14
Speaker 2
Well, thanks and thanks for being a part of category thinkers, too, because it's a great community and thanks for contributing to it.

00:32:12:17 - 00:32:43:27
Speaker 1
Absolutely. I think community is really where my heart has always been and finding a community of people who think differently, who think uniquely and who are brave and who are just willing to be themselves in that way is really just such a gift for me as an entrepreneur and as I create my own category of coaching called Eudaimonia ology.

00:32:44:00 - 00:32:59:08
Speaker 1
I really appreciate what you've created in in a really authentic, hard centered, just thankful way. So as my son says tf b y, thanks for being you.

00:32:59:11 - 00:33:00:13
Speaker 2
That's great. Thank you.

00:33:00:18 - 00:33:01:28
Speaker 1
Thank you.

00:33:02:00 - 00:33:08:21
Speaker 2
All right, Suzanne, I love.