Ep61 Eric Kaufmann - Lead with Wisdom, Love, and Power Without Losing Yourself

Eric Kaufmann  0:00  
It is fiduciary failure to be so busy as to not have time to bring the most precious gift that a CEO can bring, which is their sense of perspective, analysis, insight, understanding, all these things require a little bit of space.

Suzanne Taylor-King  0:19  
Hey, hey, welcome to a podcast where dreams meet determination and success is just around the corner. I'm your host, Suzanne Taylor King, and I'm here to help you unlock the full potential of your business and your life. Welcome to unlock your way with SDK, let's unlock your path to success together. Good. Morning. Good morning. Everyone. Suzanne Taylor King, here for another Friday Live episode of unlock your way with STK, and we are here today with an incredible new connection I found and got introduced to. Eric Kaufman. He is the managing partner of sig Attica, awesome executive guide, girl dad and incredible knowledge base on conscious leadership. And you just have this amazing story I knew I had to bring you onto the show. Welcome,

Eric Kaufmann  1:24  
thank you. Thank you. I'm delighted to be here. I'm confident no one's ever introduced me as a girl dad, but I love it, so thank you.

Suzanne Taylor-King  1:31  
Yeah, you're so welcome. I think it's so much more fun than saying father of two girls, right? Because the girl dad, a girl dad is just a different breed in my book. You know, obviously I had one too, and I think it's really incredible to describe you that way.

Eric Kaufmann  1:56  
Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I have these amazing young women that are my daughters. So yeah, the girl dad is a cool ride, you know. I mean, just work aside. It was like a, I mean, it was definitely like a spiritual evolution, right, to be a girl dad. I mean, there's something about, you know, I grew up with three brothers, right? I grew up with a with a military father and three brothers, and so to have two daughters, and to really allow that to inform me about this engine of life that I didn't really have a lot of peek into as a, you know, the oldest of four boys in a rough and tumble space. It's been amazing,

Suzanne Taylor-King  2:42  
yeah, yeah, and, and I love, you know, I immediately see the tie in to how you balance the masculine and the feminine and the conscious leadership connection of that awareness. Before we get into conscious leadership and all that goodness. I want to hear a little bit about your story and how you came to this executive guide position that you're in. Sure.

Eric Kaufmann  3:21  
Let's see, yeah. So I was so, you know, we already know, right? I was born the oldest of four boys. My dad was, you know, had had been an active military i My parents are amazing. My mom and dad are great. And as a young person, I couldn't wait to get the hell out of the house. So, but I had this, like, overactive sense of autonomy, and I was like, I got to be an actor, and so, so I left, you know, as soon as I graduated high school, I was gone, right? And when i So, this is, I got to San Diego State back in the mid 80s to go to university and as a as a because an unleashed youth with no direction and no container, 1980s at San Diego State was was a remarkable tie, but I'd say that I learned so much, and none of it applied to my grades. And so while I was getting a lot of street cred, I wasn't getting any grades, and so I ended up getting kicked out of college. Whopping, yeah, I know, right. This is not going to go anywhere public, right? So nobody's going to

Suzanne Taylor-King  4:31  
hear, oh no. Nobody's going to hear this. Don't worry about his face. Just between you and my

Eric Kaufmann  4:35  
daughters who, yeah, no, but my so I'm 19 years old, and I'm kind of messed up, you know, and I'm kicked out of college, and I had to sort of pause and say, Okay, what is wrong with this picture? And it's a very sobering experience at 19 to suddenly have the rug pulled out from under and go, wake up, dude, you know you're going the wrong way. And so long story. Short, I started looking around for what does it take for a human being to get a hold of their lives, to get a grip, to get a grip? And I ended up doing a bunch of, you know, experiential research, or what's around, and found this spiritual community that was teaching Zen, and when it looked like a bunch of people who really had their shit together, you know, turns out that's not true, because every human being is a mess.

Suzanne Taylor-King  5:30  
Everybody's working on getting

Eric Kaufmann  5:34  
trying to figure it out. But anyway, that that kind of set it up for me to start being more disciplined, more intentional, more aware, more plugged in. And I ended up, you know, being very involved in this community for 13 years. I went back to school, I graduated college, I went to work, I worked at 3m I worked at Corning, I worked some of these big, you know, American institutions. And about 1112, years into that journey, I had this crisis moment, because now I'm sort of, you know, 10 years out of school and really getting promoted at Corning labs, and I'm in the spiritual community and really getting deeper and deeper into the into the the life of kind of spiritual connection. And I was in sort of 31 or so, and I had this crisis moment saying, which way do I go? Yeah, you know, I was a point where we can, we have to focus more. And so what I focus my life really on this corporate journey that I'm on, and what I focus my life on the spiritual journey that I'm on? And after some real deliberation, I decided to go for the spiritual path and abandon the corporate path. Wow. And at all of sort of 31 years old, I quit my job, gave over all my money, I shaved my hair. I, you know, burnt my childhood photos. I took total oaths of like, I'm going in all in, and I went off to New Mexico, where we were. My community has some property, spent three months building in the woods, and then spent a year there and assigning the tree and and, you know, the intent was that was going to be like, you know, the entree into the deeper and deeper into the spiritual realm, because I'm in, right? I got new material stuff. I'm now, you're inside, but I'm getting to the point of, how do I get to be the executive guide, right? So a year into the silent retreat, I have this revelation that says, Dude, you're going the wrong way. It might not have said, dude, but that's how it sounded in my head, right? You're going the wrong way. Your spiritual growth is not in seclusion, but with wife and children and service and community. Wow. It was a total Wow. Suzanne, because I was, like, done with all that, and now I'm download saying you're going the wrong way. You got to go back and then, so that was heart stomach, you know,

Suzanne Taylor-King  8:04  
I'm sure, after being that, I mean, that's a big commitment to, I mean, just spend that long, that long of a time in silence, but you made the commitment by doing all of that work to go into. You're so, right?

Eric Kaufmann  8:23  
I mean, it was a huge commitment, you know, it was all identity. It wasn't just a commitment, right? I was like, This is who I am. I am now, this recluse. I am going to live my life as a spiritual, you know, seeker in the in the material world. But that, that anyway, that was cut short by this download. And so I turned around, went to San Diego, and thought, Well, what the heck am I going to do? I don't want to go back and get a job, right? I want to be in this role where I can, I can bridge these two worlds. How do I bring this deep world of spiritual aspiration and practice and this remarkable world of material accomplishment, and specifically, you know, leadership. And that's, that was sort of the birth of it, you know. And that was 2627 years ago. And so it's been, you know, that was kind of the that was, that was the origin of it, right, how to blend these two worlds. And then over the past 26, seven years, figuring out how to do that. And if the practical way has been on, has been sort of the Great, the great journey and the great gift of my experience, wow, yeah. Well,

Suzanne Taylor-King  9:39  
I'm really curious about when you say download, when you say you know you were in silence for a long time. And it's funny that you say dude, because when I get a really good message, it's. Typically like a tap on the shoulder, excuse me, was it like that for you? Was it just like an internal knowing that you were going the wrong way?

Eric Kaufmann  10:16  
That's a really fine point of a question. I like it. I didn't hear a voice outside my head, right? So it, I, you know, it was more than a felt sense. It was it. I mean, I remember it as like a knowing, right? No, not a voice, but a sudden knowing, and it, yeah, moving, felt like it was a third party knowing, as in, like, I'm not thinking of this entirely, you know, it's not like, Oh, let me sit down and figure out this formula, kind of knowing it was like this knowing that came upon me. So that's why it has a sense of third party, and it has a sense of external input and and, yeah, I, you know, you're right to sort of pull the string. The words are, is it a download? Is it an insight? Is it a revelation? Is it a message? Yes,

Suzanne Taylor-King  11:16  
yeah. Because it was different for everyone. You know. I think when this happens, this distinction of, you know, did you hear it? Did you see it? Did you feel it? Was it internal? Was it external? Was it through writing? Was it through thinking? And I often say for myself, I often say it's a like, I just remembered it like somebody told me 10 years ago, this thing, and I in the moment, say, oh, and I remember what I'm supposed to be doing or thinking or being. And I got that sense with you that it was like a, you know, a really strong call to be bringing this spiritual knowledge to other people.

Eric Kaufmann  12:10  
Yeah, I really like that you use the word call, because that's how I often refer to as a calling. And I'll say that I'm 39 years now into a meditation practice, it's very consistent, right? I still, you know, I still sit every day, still do retreats twice a year, right? This is it's never abated. It just changed as my life changed, right? But I definitely refer to these elements as a calling and and when I really reflect on what meditation has become for me at this point in life, it's become a practice of deep listening, right? And listen at different levels, but in a way, like when I'm sitting on a cushion, if someone's talking, my head is tilted and I'm I'm attuning to what is, what am I being called to? And quite frankly, you know, in leadership and in life, it's such a big part of what I am teaching and coaching and helping other folks, other leaders, in particular, attuned to because we are so remarkably smart, right? There's such an incredible cognitive capacity, and especially the folks that you and I get this sort of privilege to work with are really, for the most part smart, really accomplished, sharp thinkers, and we tend to over index our ability to think cognitively in linear ways, and under value this kind of sense of spontaneity, of surprise, of illumination, of inspiration, of mystery. And I think one of the things that great sort of thinkers are actually known for is not just thinking cognitively, but having that spaciousness to allow that inspiration to arise and inform them and guide them right, and, and, and in every spiritual tradition, every religious tradition we talk about being guided, right? But it doesn't have to be a divine being. It's the subtleness, it's the it's the quiet, it's the the remembering. I love the way you said that, right? There's a remembering that arises when we can get you know present enough, and when we can get you know curious. Enough space for that much subtler sound to arise, and often, that is what shapes our lives. That is what you know. Edison was hunting in this laboratory when he spent 2000 efforts trying to make the ball right. That's what Ford was hunting when he was trying to figure out the the the conveyor belt, right? These, these inventors are not just their cranking smoke coming out of their ears. They're made in space. It's Archimedes in the bathtub, leaning back, relaxing and having the eureka moment. And I think that so critical and so undervalued that we really need to bring that forth to have a more. More meaningful life.

Suzanne Taylor-King  15:03  
That's so good, so good. Because the way you describe it is so different than the way I describe it, but it's so the same. This idea of creating space, I love the way you say that I say, block the calendar. You know, block the calendar and honor that time for yourself, whether it's an hour a day or two hours a day. I like three hours a day. But whatever that looks like for you, you have to intentionally create that space, or your day just gets filled with tasks and calendar appointments and clients and then the family responsibilities and the idea of having space and Time to allow thinking to happen, at least for me, has been key to everything great I've ever created, including my family and my son and my business And I love to understand why this idea of giving time to yourself is so difficult for so many people.

Eric Kaufmann  16:32  
There are probably more than one reason why it is but first thing that sort of arises is that we are performance based, right? So if you think of what you do, from what we're exposed to, from being a very little person, all the way through, you know, you know, elementary school, middle school, high school, college, job, right? What do you performance reviews? Right? Are regular thing in the job. You know when, when they talk about talent reviews, we look at potential and performance, right? How are we doing? And so we are performance based, which means action oriented, right? And it takes, sort of a special teaching for somebody to realize that performance and reflection are not in awe, not at odds, right? That space for the space for the emergent to come forward does not diminish our ability to get shit done, right? And I think we're in such a activity mode. And then, not only this performance space, but we talked about, you know, the identity I had going into this sort of leaving corporate and being a spiritual person. When that suddenly changed, right? I had to it wasn't just a function of doing something different. I had a new identity that was coming online, and I had to grapple with not being the person I already decided I was and now being somebody different, right? And so we are rewarded for our performance. Our identity is rooted in doing stuff. And you know, the more you have on the calendar, the more important you are, by some accounts, right? And so there's a tremendous pressure around us to do, and there's very little encouragement around us to listen, you know, and to listen to other people is amazing. To listen to ourselves seems like a just a, you know, ridiculous luxury,

Suzanne Taylor-King  18:36  
but isn't that where growth comes from? From the reflection on let's take a mistake, for example, or a failure, when you reflect on that moment in time, and your reaction to that moment in time isn't that where the learning comes from, isn't that where the gifts come from? For the future?

Eric Kaufmann  19:07  
I'm smiling because I love that you say that I just love that you said. I mean, yes, and I think I've written about this in all three of my books, right? This notion that we learn from our mistakes is really aspirational, because I made the same more than once, and I've seen other people make mistakes multiple times. No, we can learn from mistakes, right? Learn. We pause and digest the mistake and make sense of it. So you're I mean, it's so important what you're saying, right? We don't learn from the mistakes. We learn from the reflection. If we pause and say, what happened? What were the you know, what were these sort of causes for it? What can I do differently? What do I have to set up differently? Who do I need to be differently? What do I need to sketch? Yes, it's the reflection that is the learning, not the mistake, right? So. Yeah, and, you know, from a leadership perspective, from a life leadership perspective, but certainly an organizational team this, most of my clients are CEOs and and C suite executives. It is, it is fiduciary failure to not reflect. Yes, it is fiduciary failure to be so busy as to not have time to bring the most precious gift that a CEO can bring right, which is their sense of perspective, analysis, insight, understanding, integration, all these things require, you know, a little bit of space. So, yeah, yeah, let's listen more that

Suzanne Taylor-King  20:49  
well. Well, I think you know that this gift of knowing yourself at a really deep level as a leader, I know that as I've learned myself, I'm able to help others in a, I guess, a bigger way or a deeper way. You know, if I thought about being the coach I am today. When I was 24 running my first business, not even possible, not even I couldn't even think of who I am today because all the things hadn't happened to me yet, right? And I think finding gifts in in tragedy and trauma and illness and all the things, all the mistakes, what's, what's that thread that goes through life as as a leader, or, it doesn't matter if you're a coach, but if you're owning a business, if you're in the world, if you're a parent, if you're I don't care if you're a CEO. It doesn't matter what position you're in, because this work applies to everyone, and I think it's allowed so much for me, and I'm wondering how, how do you describe that to someone who is running a company, leading others, maybe they're a parent, also, how do you describe that to someone so that it feels valuable and worth investing in?

Eric Kaufmann  22:45  
So after many years of doing this work, I identified what I've come to call the number one barrier to executive effectiveness, one barrier to executive likeness. And as you said, what you were saying, it was occurring to me that it could also be the number one barrier to parenting effectiveness, to relational effectiveness. But I'm, I'm going to hold in the realm of executive right, okay, and the term that I came up with is ego myopia. Ego myopia. And ego myopia is basically not able, not being able to see and regulate our ego, right? And our ego, and when you talk about the 24 year old version, the 30 year old version versus the, you know, your current version, right, that notion of sort of the ego myopia is means that my my perception, is wrapped around this tight, you know, unit that is very self, you know, centered and self oriented, and there's an aspect of that that's really necessary, right? We have to be able to function. We have to be able to be autonomous. We have to learn how to have agency in our lives. Those are all wonderful, powerful, necessary gifts, right? But ego, myopia is saying that, you know, I have the need to be right. I must be right. And so what happens to a leader who needs to be right in the meeting? Everyone else has to be either wrong or quiet, and this, you know, I'm being right, well, I have to be I have to be liked. That's another great one, right? And what happens that now I'm so diplomatic as a leader because I want to be liked, that I'm not actually saying what's on my mind. And, you know, I'm perpetuating all kinds of dysfunction, or I have to have might. Let's be in control. Let's be in charge. I must have autonomy and power and authority. These are sort of ego, myopia, type of expressions, right? And it isn't that being right, being liked, or having might is inherently bad. It's just that it's kind of immature, and so take to evolve to your point, right, the difference between the 24 year old and the mature sort of person who knows herself is that those the ego myopia, the need to be right, the need to be like the need to have might kind of evolves and grows, and what we can have on the other side of that, the need to be right, I must be smart, right, matures into. What comes online as wisdom? Yeah, right now, when I'm bringing wisdom, instead of the need to be, right, I can start seeing people for who they are, seeing the situation, for what it is, seeing the bigger picture, understanding the consequences of what's going to happen and what made this come to be That's wisdom, right? The need to be liked, which is all about me, like me, see me, know me, matures to love, the ability to give to others, to see them for who they are, to honor and nurture their spirit, their soul, their body, their mind, their career, right? The love that is the the inkling to give, to nurture, and the need to have might, which is, I want to be in control. I mustn't be in charge of turns into actual power, right, living with purpose and relaxed presence real personal power, and that power when we come to it, is the only way that we can sustainably empower others, because it was so stuck in the need to have might. Cannot share power because they must have the might when I come into my personal power, I can cultivate that in others, and to the point that you're making about this sort of you know, the knowing yourself right when I can come into myself and come into this wisdom, into this love, into this power, that's when I can begin to also really bring that up in other people. The reason you're such a fabulous coach at this point, there are many reasons, but knowing yourself allows you to see others and help them know themselves. Yeah, won't have be there and have them affirm you, because you already know yourself. And when you can bring that with Coach, when you can bring that as a leader, when you can bring that as a parent, get comfortable in your skin, inevitably, it is not possible to avoid this. When we get comfortable in our skin, we begin to automatically invite and encourage and educate and coach others to be comfortable in their skin. And the collective effort of that is remarkable in terms of creativity, in terms of engagement, in terms of passion, in terms of ease, and so, yes, I'm a big fan. I'm

Suzanne Taylor-King  27:07  
a big fan now, because I feel, as you were describing that, I, you know, my whole body is like, yes, yes, that's what's required, yes and but you don't know that when you're not doing it or before you need to do it, right? So there's this lack of lack of awareness. I think that happens, and I would love to know. I think just by being you, you bring awareness to it, but I know it's more than that. I know that when you have a conversation with someone, they don't even know that you're going to become their guide on that initial conversation. I know they don't. So how do you navigate those conversations so that someone could understand what's possible when, when they haven't even begun to do this work yet? And I know you do this, but I'm so curious about how you present it. Yeah, conversation.

Eric Kaufmann  28:33  
You know, I had a conversation with somebody on Monday, this president of a of a company. I quite frankly, to your point, it was just an introduction. So I didn't, you know, I didn't right, who knew. But I think the first thing that I would say, and I think you and I probably share that, and I care, yeah, you know, I genuinely, you know, my long standing sort of practices brought me to the point where humans are precious, you know. And I care, I just care about, you know, for me, it's a spiritual motivation, right? I really care about wanting to have folks wake up to their own remarkable nature, and then to continue to do that for others, right? There's, you know, one candle lights the next candle lights the next candle, and when one candle lights the next candle, the first candle is not diminished for lighting the candle after it, right? And so on and so on and so on and so and then, not unlike what you do so and you know, on display here so beautifully, right? I'm curious. Yeah, right. I'm not entering into the conversation to tell you, you know, I don't start a conversation by telling my life story. You said, Tell me you know where your origin story on in this venue, civil sense. But I'm not entering into a conversation with a stranger. Going, let me take you back to when I was born, you know, yeah, I'm curious. And what happens is, when you combine care with curiosity, we then enter into a conversation that goes below the level of your your sort of day to day transaction, or the sort of, you know, cocktail party. Something opens up when we show up with care and with curiosity, right? And then, you know, there's a little bit of, I'm going to go alliterate here, I guess you know that I care, I'm curious. And then there's some courage to name things, right? Not the name of like I see this in you, I the great Oracle. But when I heard this in what you said, is that what you meant? Because I sense that this origin, you haven't named it fully, but that's what I hear. And they go, Holy shit. How'd you figure that out? Yeah, yeah, you know. And so, so I would say, you know, the care is sort of the love I hadn't. I was intending to sort of put this together, but now that you're asking me, right? If I talk about wisdom, love and power, right, wisdom is, is, you know, one of the great markers of wisdom is curiosity, right? Wisdom isn't necessarily knowledge, right? Wisdom is the perception of things, and so this curiosity is the Wisdom, right, the care that I'm referring to as the love, right? I really do care, and then the courage piece is part of the power. So this is very cool. I hadn't actually put that together before, but, you know, that's how we engage in a conversation. I bring care, I bring courage, and I bring curiosity, and we enter then into an experience that is not the ordinary, typical experience, yeah. And once you begin there, just like this, this President, the other day, you know, said, What does it take to sort of work with you? And it's funny, because I'm like, Well, what do you mean? Because I'm in the conversation, yes.

Suzanne Taylor-King  32:01  
Yeah. You said, Wait, wait, I wasn't even going there yet. I'm not even I wasn't showing up

Eric Kaufmann  32:09  
with that. You wouldn't be appalled, because I have done this. I had, it wasn't that long ago. I was talking with this business owner, this wonderful woman, and then she goes, Well, what does it take to work with you? There was another one of those questions. And I was like, wait, I'm not ready. I'm like, I'm like, I'm in a whole different mindset. I can't answer that for you. Can we talk again tomorrow? She's like, What? Like, I know this is the worst sales pitch ever, but, you know, I kind of, I get, I get in the mood, in the groove, and I want to stay there. And so that's, you know, that's the, that's sort of the pleasure of it, right? Because to have these, these, these, and then when it goes on, like, if I'm coaching somebody over time, right? We can go places when and and I'm, I have so much experience. Suzanne, at this point, I've been doing this for 25 years, you know? I'm, I'm, I'm Chairman of the Board of this organization. I'm, you know, I'm, sort of was inducted as a thought leader at the Institute of coaching. I've written three books. I mean, the knowledge is just so vast. That's not where I'm coming from, right? You know, what's interesting to me is, Who are you, and how does your journey get sort of realized, and how does that affect the team and then the organization, right? So that's, that's, that's a real pleasure.

Suzanne Taylor-King  33:25  
Yeah, I think it's such a gift. And I want to just say to many times coaches ask me, Well, how, how do you get clients? How do you have a sales conversation? And what Eric just shared, that's how, and it's so beautiful the way you described that for me, because I can't tell you how many times that's happened for me in a conversation where someone has said, Well, how do I hire you? And I'm like, Huh, what? I Oh, oh, I wasn't even there yet. And if you're serious, let's, let's talk the same time next week, and but I want to finish where we were today. And you know this idea of serving others, you describe that so well, the love, the care, the courage, and you're such a deep listener. Do you think that's because you spent so much time in silence with yourself

Eric Kaufmann  34:59  
for. Sure, yes, I mentioned to you earlier, know, at this point in my life, I think of my meditation practice as a practice of listening, yeah, and part of the reason that I got into this field was that I wanted to have a professional practice that would allow me to maintain my spiritual practice as part of the professional practice, right? And so the beautiful thing about coaching, about facilitating, you know, and I do keynotes and I write, I mean, so it's not all sort of the Yin. There's a yang component to it as well, right? There's a masculine the feminine, as it were, the yin and yang. But, you know, from the perspective of being attuned to another person, I had spent almost 40 years paying attention. I mean, if there's anything I'm trained in really thoroughly, it's paying attention. You know, that is, that is like, that is literally what I've done for 1000s of hours, is just sit and pay attention. And so paying attention to another human. And when I work with teams, right, noticing the dynamics in a room, right? I'm noticing, you know, long before anyone else has noticed it. And because I'm listening at multiple levels, from the very sort of initial about the download, right? I'm listening at the head level, like, what's the what's the information? I'm listening at the heart level, as in, what's the connectivity and the sort of, the sense of the sense of communal energy, I'm listening to gut level, what wants to move here, right? And so as I'm listening at the three levels, you know? Yeah, I was at a I was with a client group that I'd worked with for a year, and I basically, I'm in San Diego. They're in San Francisco, so I went up there once a month and spent like a day with their executive team, right? It was kind of an intention. And the COO had pulled me to the side when we were done one day, and he goes, Eric, how do you do that? I said, How do I do what? He goes, How do you know exactly where we need to go every time we get together, and I'm like, Ira, I don't he goes, I don't believe you, because every time we get it together, we get to this place that we need to get to. How do you do it? You know, I have an agenda, I have a process, all these mechanisms, and I have these systems and frameworks. At the end of the day, I am listening at a level that none of them is listening, and I can feel what wants to emerge, and I let it come in, and I invoke it, and I give it name, and then suddenly it's in the room, and they're like, holy shit. This is exactly, you know. So, yeah, yeah. So I am, of all things in my life, I am trained to pay attention, and that is predicated on listening.

Suzanne Taylor-King  37:42  
I love that, and I hear something deeper, the intuitive piece and the trust that is required in order to show up like that. So that trust comes from experience, and, you know, hundreds, 1000s of hours of doing it, but having other people see that in you and and trust it also, you know, a team full of people trusting where you're gonna take them. Such an incredible gift.

Unknown Speaker  38:27  
I mean, you are so sharp, I freaking and

Suzanne Taylor-King  38:29  
you get skateboard too, which is really cool. It

Eric Kaufmann  38:33  
is cool. But Suzanne, your your distinctions, your inquiry. I I'm really enjoying being in your presence. It's a beautiful thing. I mean, through this conversation is sort of about me, and, you know, you're on display with all your genius and beauty and the depth and nuance. I mean, the things you're bringing forward is just so gorgeous. I love it, and, and, and you're absolutely right. I say this to the executive teams that I work with all the time. You know, I have no misgivings or no Miss, I am fully aware of the privilege that they are bestowing to allow me to drop into the middle of their community and affected by the presence. It is never lost on me that this is a privilege and a responsibility. And, you know, I take it very seriously, and, and, and, and you're right. I mean, it's a big deal, right? Because, you know, I'm sitting in the room there, and I was recently up in Vail, right? Was, was this the global executive team had come together, right? So they did some really nice hotel and veil. And I'm sitting there with, you know, here's the global CEO, the regional CEO, the Chairman of the Board of this, you know, whatever it is, a multi, multi billion dollar organization, right? And they're basically. Be handing the reins over to Eric, you know, help us. Yeah, and it's never lost on me that that's a big responsibility, you know, and it's also a real delight. Yes, no, it's a real delight to to help them articulate and behave in ways that they haven't articulated and behaved before. That is net, net value adding to their business. Yes, you know, a net, net value adding to their humanity, you know. And so, yeah, it is, it is. It is a trust. Forget trust fall from a chair, right? This is, this is a

Suzanne Taylor-King  40:46  
they trust walk, yes. And I think there was Dr Danny Friedland wrote a book called leading well from within, and I've read it twice now. And this idea of self leadership, so that you can help others lead, and being okay, not being the leader, also, you know, that's a vulnerability piece that I'm intrigued by, because it's not all about me. When I'm with a group of people or my own community, it's not, and a lot of times it feels like I'm the center of attention, but I'm not there for me. I'm there for the people in the room, and I think that is such a gift. I always say it's a gift to be learning things for other people. Just take AI tools. For an example, I get to spend a couple hours every week diving into technology so that I can bring that knowledge to other people, such a privilege, in my mind.

Eric Kaufmann  42:07  
Yeah, well, I mean, there's a couple thoughts there. One is, you know, to lead is to teach, right? I mean, the distinction between teaching and leading is a ludicrous. One. Right to lead is teach. The other thing that, personally, as you were saying that, is, you know, and you said that you had started out by in the comments you just made. And then you said, you know, I'm in the room. I think like you, right? I don't think there's a venue in which you're not the leader, but you have some. There's a continuum of what you do with that power, what you do with that rule, what you do with that dynamic, right? And so you know one way to describe that dynamic, that that continuum is like taking space and holding space right. It's going on one end of the continuum, I can take space and I can be intentional about taking space right, if I want to guide, if I want to guide, if I want to direct, if I want to insist, if I want to drive, I can take space. I can come on and there's, there's, you know, all the way over here is holding space where I'm going to be much more of the container, right? That's inviting others to fill the space, right? Yeah. And I think that maturity journey, because, you know, Eric in his young life, was really much more into taking space. Yeah, he didn't quite grasp this holding space, right? Eric, at this point, can hold space beautifully, right? And I can, I can zoom in here and take space, zoom out here and hold space. But I'm never like you, not sort of the leader, because that's at a certain point that that sense of authority, that sense of groundedness, that sense of trust, right, is not a role. It's a vibrational identity. It's the way of being. And I think the journey of maturity, and I work with CEOs in this all the time. The ego myopic, the ego myopia is in is really focused on holding space. I mean, I'm taking space, and the conscious leaders can move back and forth between holding taking space, right? I'll be in charge now what I'm saying or holding space. What do you guys want? You go do it. And it's not that we're not the leader. It's this, we have range. And this is one of, this is one of the great sort of emphases in my coaching work, in my facilitation work. I wrote this in there's, I think, the second to last chapter in my book leadership breakdown. I talk about, forget, change, build range.

Suzanne Taylor-King  44:38  
Oh, that's good.

Eric Kaufmann  44:41  
That's I don't really, I don't coach people to change, because everyone I'm coaching is mature, sophisticated, successful. What the hell do I change? Or what they're they're under resourcing their capacity, right? So there's not enough range in their responses and their thinking, and they're relating. And so my. Work is to help people grow range, right? Have more possibilities at hand from which they can make choices, and then inevitable looks like they've changed, right? But it's situational, right? So that's, I don't know that when you Yeah, when you get to this point where you're the leader, you're a leader, but if you're a conscious leader, you're you have range

Suzanne Taylor-King  45:25  
agreed. I, I feel that so, so rich the description of that, it's almost adaptability, in my mind, it's a willingness to be what other people need.

Eric Kaufmann  45:48  
Yeah, and, but, you know, there's a version of being what other people need. It looks like people pleasing, or being a chameleon or, right? I don't think you're referring to that. I think you're coming back to this point of service, right? And I'm saying, if I'm stuck in ego myopia, it's all about me. I have my need to be right, my need to be like, my need to have my it's hard to flex because I need what I need. If I can move mature and grow into wisdom to see what's necessary and what's happening, love the capacity to actually attend to what other people need that space, and then power the ability to move intentionally and purposefully in that space. Then, yes, I have range, right? I can be what people need. And, you know this, you know, there's sort of the classic sales line, right? Sometimes you need to peep you sometimes you give people what they want, so you can be there long enough to give them what they need. You know, because sometimes what people need is not what they think they need. Yes, right? And I think when we can tune in not just to what they need, but we can tune in even deeper to what they require, that they may not be able to articulate, yeah, and then we can now forward. Now we look like we're prescient. Now we're looking like we're reading the future, which we're not. We're just paying attention and we're and you know my staff, the folks who work for me, you know the folks who works for leaders like this, they feel so supported, even when they're being pushed Yes, and that's a beautiful thing, because now they're not grumpy. You know, they're engaged, and we all know about the research on engagement, right? Yes,

Suzanne Taylor-King  47:32  
yes. One of my dearest friends said to me yesterday she's been doing something in her business for about two years, and it's not working. And she said to me, it's not working, and we're on the phone. And I smiled to myself, and I took a nice deep breath, and she said, What? And I said, I know it's not working. Do you want to do something different? And she said, Yes. And inside, I was like, finally, finally, but she had to get to that point. You know, I can't push somebody to change or want to do something different, but it was her such a incredible moment for me to feel her willingness now to see things differently. And you know, since we're really good friends. She's not a client. We're really close, close friends to have her see now. And when I experience that, and I'm sure this happens to you, when someone gets it, when someone just sees doesn't matter if they're paying me or not. That feels like such an accomplishment, and not from from an ego based, oh, Sue is great. Eric's great look what he did, but a supportive, engaged, just I'm living my purpose right now, and I really feel as though I'm so thankful that you heard the message of bringing this message to your corporate experience, that blend that you have is so so needed today. You know, not everybody is a conscious leader. Not everybody has a conscious community or culture within their company, and I think it's so so needed. You. Right now, and such a gift that you've brought it together, and I'm honored that I help you tell more people about it because of that.

Eric Kaufmann  50:15  
Yeah, thank you. That's beautiful. Yeah, there. You know, I um, the arc of history had a particular bend, right in the 1750s right? It was called the Industrial Revolution. And the Industrial Revolution had many implications, not the least of which is it. It birthed the era of the entrepreneur, right? Commercial leaders, they we didn't have that before we had tradesmen, right? There were kings, there were priests. They sort of ran the world, right. And then you had the commercial class. That was the kings and priests were always fighting about who could own the commercial class, right? Because the people with the money had the power. People with the power and the money right, the the advent of the of the Industrial Revolution. So democratize the distribution of means and money. And middle class, upper class, suddenly there were people of, you know, wealth and power that were not from noble blood or from priestly, you know, lineage. And so it was a revolution in human sort of culture that became this new class of people with money and power based on business, right. And fast forward, you know, post World War Two, when we're sort of the the the post, the kind of post industrial world really picks up speed. And where we land today is it in in sort of the course of history, the kings and the priests are their privilege, whatever right. You know, the governments and churches are not calling the shots. Business people are Yeah. Do we need any more evidence of that? This point, I've been talking about this for the last five years, and it's on display in a way that on display at a whole nother level. Right? Business people are running the show if we don't raise their consciousness, if they're just driven by the sort of ego myopic need to be right, to be have, might to just have power. The executives and organization these days are implicitly and explicitly now in charge of the architects of our freaking world, the physical world, the mimetic world, the cultural world, our relationship where we think we want our tastes and fashions are orchestrated and architected. And so this notion of conscious leadership is not just about sort of solar panels and, you know, recyclables, it's about really holding space being a steward for humanity and for the planet. And so we have this, like, incredibly critical moment to raise consciousness among executives who are the architects of society and the planet, so that as they're architecting it, they're doing so from a place of awareness and consciousness of the implications near term, long term, and to all stakeholders, and so that

Suzanne Taylor-King  53:17  
all people, people and planet, right? Like it's, it's, you know, who are we being as a business owner, small or large this, this applies to even the smallest business owner, because they are influencing other people. If you're selling a product or a service in the online space, you have a responsibility to the people that are buying from you in my book, and to

Eric Kaufmann  53:47  
the people that are manufacturing, to people the shipping and the people that are billing for it, right? So, yeah, that that's, that's part of my I mean, I have my own personal, you know, lifelong fascination and practice around combining consciousness and business. But there is, there is a bigger game of foot than Eric's intentions, right? There is a reality which says that, you know, we need to affect, you know, business school doesn't do any effort to raise consciousness, right? You read a P and L, you do marketing, you do finance, you do strategy, all these wonderful things, but now we are talking about architects of humanity and architects of the planet. So let's in invest and insert consciousness into these folks so that they're architecting from that place as well. Well said,

Suzanne Taylor-King  54:38  
tell us a little bit about how we can get in touch with you. How can our listeners today get in touch with you, follow you, get on your email list and all that good stuff.

Eric Kaufmann  54:47  
Yeah, wonderful. Thank you. You know the the network, social network I'm on, the only one I'm on, is LinkedIn. So you know Eric Hoffman, my name on LinkedIn, I'm Mike. Shots on there, so you should be able to identify me. I have a newsletter that I put out that that goes sort of deep into principles and practices of how to do this. And my email is Eric. My first name at sagatica, S, A, G, A, T, i, c, a sagatica. And if, if you email me or just go to the sagatica.com there's a place to join the newsletter, but, yeah, thank you for, you know, inviting me and thank I said this once, but it's such a delight to be in conversation with you. Your own wisdom, love and power are so on display. It just, it's just it's nourishing to me to have this conversation. So thank you.

Suzanne Taylor-King  55:42  
Oh, you're so welcome. I'm a words of affirmation girl, so I really appreciate that, and love that so much. So thank you for being here today. I appreciate you, and we'll talk again soon. I know. I look forward to it. Have a great day, everyone. Thank you for tuning in to another empowering episode of unlock your way. I hope you found today's discussion inspiring and you're ready to take your business and personal growth to that next level. If you're feeling as fired up as I am and eager to unlock that full potential, I'm here to help you on your journey and provide that personalized guidance tailored to your unique goals and challenges. Simply book a one on one coaching call with me, and we'll dive deep into your business aspirations and see how we could co create a roadmap for your success, and whether you're striving to scale an enterprise or just getting started, I'm here to support you every step of the way. To schedule your coaching call, simply visit the website at unlock your way with stk.com click on the book a call button, and we'll turn your dreams into that reality. Subscribe and review on your favorite podcast platform and on YouTube, plus, you can join over 800 entrepreneurs in the IDEA Lab Facebook group. Let's make success as an entrepreneur happen together until next time I'm SDK, keep dreaming big, stay focused, and most of all, have fun while you're doing it.

Speaker 1  57:32  
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